Deconstructing Deconstruction: Doubt, Church Hurt, and What Comes Next

Deconstruction, doubt, and church hurt are reshaping how many people see Christianity, but what happens after you pull everything apart? 

In this episode, Dave and Josh unpack the deconstruction movement, share honestly about pain, abuse, and big questions about God, and wrestle with whether atheism, science, or “spiritual but not religious” offers anything solid to stand on. 

They explore what it could look like to move from endless critique to reconstructing a thoughtful, durable faith in Jesus.

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Rethink Revive is a podcast where we carry on Pastor Jeff Leake’s legacy by having honest conversations about faith, leadership, grief, and navigating change in a rapidly shifting world. 

Whether we’re addressing cultural trends, spiritual questions, or everyday challenges of faith, our goal is simple: to help you think deeply, live faithfully, and experience renewal in God’s presence. Formerly known as the Allison Park Leadership Podcast.

Transcript

Dave Leake: 0:01

Hey, welcome to Rethink Revive, where we take a second look at social and spiritual issues. I'm your host. My name is David Leake, and joining me today is another special guest, my brother Josh Leake. Give it up for Josh!

Joshua Leake: 0:15

Thunderous applause in the

Unknown: 0:16

back. It's been a while. I don't

Joshua Leake: 0:18

think I've been on for I don't know. Two years. It's been a long time. It's good to be back. Yeah,

Dave Leake: 0:25

a lot's happened since then. Josh is not only my brother, but is the lead pastor of Allison Park Church, which is awesome and exciting. And Josh, how have you been these two years?

Joshua Leake: 0:40

Well, let me take the next 45 minutes and catch you up. It's been good. I mean, obviously, it's been it's been crazy. So much has happened this year, but I'm very thankful for where things are at. I'm very thankful to be at my home church and be leading here. Family's doing great, and yeah, that's probably enough. I'm I don't need to keep going.

Dave Leake: 1:02

Yeah, you can go as long as you want to. By the way, I'm looking at myself on this, and the last time I was on, I was doing it with Jordan, and I was like, "Man, I always look tired. So I'm gonna try to animate my face a little bit more. Sarah said, "Like your eyes look dead, and that that cut me. So I'm trying to.

Joshua Leake: 1:20

It's those dread Dave eyes.

Dave Leake: 1:22

Yeah, use my muscles and my eye, my eye muscles, whatever those are, my eyelid muscles a little more. Cool. Well, again, welcome to the podcast. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. We've been doing, or I should say, I guess I've been doing a podcast like this for the last seven-ish years, from 2019 until the beginning of this year, I did it with my dad. And probably, if you're listening, you know this, but Pastor Jeff passed away kind of tragically in February, and so we've been sorting through this. We had just actually relaunched the podcast as the Rethink Revive podcast, and now we're carrying this on his stead and in his honor. And many of you who are listening have been listening for a very long time, so we wanted to say thank you for being a part of this. If you have not had a chance to do this, you can help us out by leaving a five star review on whatever platform you're listening on, and if it's on if it's on Apple Podcasts, especially, we will see your name. We'd love to give you a shout out. We haven't had anybody for a little bit, so if you want to be someone to get us back on track, that'd be super helpful. We always appreciate that. Just helps us to spread the word and kind of grow the people that we're trying to reach. So today we're going to jump into a topic. It we're going to talk about deconstructing deconstruction. Deconstruction has become something. I mean, honestly, it's it's in some ways it's kind of old hat now. But it was

Joshua Leake: 2:52

thinking that as we were starting, I I looked up. I was like, is is deconstructing even a word that people are using? Because the the pro or the the cultural phenomenon is still very very much alive, but I was it seems like people are still using this word. Like this word is not

Dave Leake: 3:10

probably. I was wondering, yeah, but I think it's not as much of like a trend as it was, and or it's not trending the way that it had been, say in 2020. Man, I'm so glad, by the way, that we are not in 2020 anymore. Because that I still feel exhausted from 2020. It's like it's like, jeez. But okay, so we're we're gonna talk about deconstructing deconstruction. It's a it's a it is a recent ish in terms of modern history thing that that happened where people felt like the traditional structures and authorities and cultural norms were oppressing people and were putting pressure that wasn't meant to be there means of control for the powerful elites or the people that have always been in control and specifically deconstruction really took root in the church. People that had grown up in church, that had been, you know, they had felt burned by church, or they didn't agree with it anymore, or they felt like the church that they were part of was not Christ-like, began to analyze and examine the roots of their faith and whether they still believed in those things. And really, not just is Christianity true. Dad and I talked about this years ago, but really the question is Christianity good, and so what we're going to attempt to do today is to talk through deconstruction and to sort of analyze this. What I guess now not just a trend, but it's kind of a norm, and take some stabs at it and give some takes and all this. So, Josh, any thoughts you want to open us up on? Where do you want to start with this?

Joshua Leake: 4:46

Yeah, well, I think probably where we can start is just talking a little bit about how broad it is, and then maybe we can narrow because what it feels like to me is deconstructing can specifically relate to. Just asking questions about something that I once accepted automatically, and I just kind of pick it apart and try to find what was helpful and unhelpful. And then deconstructing can be: I had a painful experience with something, and I need to voice the broken parts of this, which I feel like is really where a lot of so much in the past-I don't know-10 years, especially six years, this came alive. Is people starting to share experiences, and then they would see something that was popular, that was somebody sharing their experience, and then somebody else, and it kind of went viral in that way. But I think now it feels like deconstructing can mean so many different things that I I feel like honing in on what even exactly deconstructing is exactly is like we we just saying deconstructing I think can mean so many things I guess is probably a good place to start

Dave Leake: 6:00

yeah sure so you want to take a stab at what you mean by deconstructing? When we were talking on the phone before we had this podcast, you said like this is one of those topics that stressed me out and given me what do you say so much anxiety over the past several years. You're like, I have a whole lot that on on this that I could talk about. But what would be your what would be your definition that you want to focus in on to start us off?

Joshua Leake: 6:24

Yeah, I think the the simple definition that we're going to talk about is asking questions and identifying problems in a system or belief that maybe at one point you never questioned or that you were a part of, and I think one of the reasons that you you just pointed out, I talked about how it stressed me out. I've had conversations with other people about this same thing. Is I'm going to separate humanity into two categories, and this is going to be very crude and probably not totally fair. But the the first category is people who, when somebody questions or criticizes or judges something and points out problems, they feel unsettled, and it sort of makes them feel anxious. And then there's the other category of humans that ramp up from this. And I was talking to it was you and Jordan about this because you were both like, oh, when people point out these things, it makes me be like, wow, there's these guys are idiots for doing that, and I'm like, for me, it was like the opposite.

Dave Leake: 7:30

You're not quoting. Am I going too fast? Keep going. Go ahead. Call anybody an idiot. Not yet. Okay, I'm

Joshua Leake: 7:38

using I'm using generalized language to say like that's so ridiculous and I think I'm one of those people who's more easily unsettled by criticism and by questions because I think one of the things that I've always wrestled with which I think is a part of deconstruction in some sense is the question what if I'm wrong about what I believe so I've talked to my brother Caleb about this. I was just talking to my wife Allison about this. That question, I think, weighs really heavy on people. What if I'm wrong about what I've always believed, especially in Christianity? If you grew up with it, what if I'm wrong about this, and what do I do? And is that going to tear apart everything I believe in, and especially when there's situations of pain and real stories of abuse, it just gets really confusing. So I don't know-is that a good starting place for this?

Dave Leake: 8:32

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean, well, I think okay, I think in general, all the two of us-you've always been the more empathetic one than me. I tend to be a little more black and white. It's

Joshua Leake: 8:43

a very kind way of framing it.

Dave Leake: 8:46

Oh, I well, what I was just let me finish that. I was going to say I feel like for me, I've always been a little more black and white. Probably tend tend or trend towards insensitivity, and I just like this is how it is, and I think you probably have been a little bit more empathetic how people feel. I think on that wait, really quick, the

Joshua Leake: 9:07

reason I said that because there was like a long five second pause where you're like, "But you and I all had all these arguments over Myers Briggs F's and T's back in the day that were like very long. That's why I was continuing, which

Dave Leake: 9:20

which is a personality profile that tends to it it helps to measure whether you make decisions more based on just logic that's sort of cold and detached or more based on feelings and values and Josh probably would you describe yourself more as a feeler if we were going to use our total framework although

Joshua Leake: 9:41

I I hated that label in the past, which is why we fought,

Dave Leake: 9:44

right? Yeah, no,

Joshua Leake: 9:45

but yeah, no, I do think it's it's helpful in that way. Now

Dave Leake: 9:47

that we're in our 30s, we never fight anymore. Never, never argue about anything. No, but I I do think that you know it's it's probably healthy at the just the be. Which I guess we're still at the beginning of this. Just acknowledge, you know, a lot of people have been through some painful experiences. I think probably the main thing that pushes people in the direction of deconstruction is pain. They've been through pain. A loved one that they that they care about has been through pain, and it doesn't seem like the system they've grown up in and the church that they've been a part of is really helping them the way that they expected it to, and and so I think often that's where it originates. And so I think it's healthy for us to acknowledge that pain.

Joshua Leake: 10:36

Can I jump on that one second?

Dave Leake: 10:38

Sure. If I could ask a quick question as well. Just just while we're in the middle of this, we can cut this or not. But producer Matt, is my audio picking up because I'm not seeing the waves on the screen?

Joshua Leake: 10:48

Yeah, it's on there. It

Dave Leake: 10:50

is cool. Okay, well you can cut that part. But yeah, Josh, why don't you go ahead?

Joshua Leake: 10:54

Yeah. Well, I think a lot of the pain that I've seen, or even that I've gone through when I've wrestled with some of these questions, is why would God allow? Or if God was really good, then why is this happening? Or why did this pastor do this or say this? Why did this thing implode? Or why did Christian parenting bring about these results? I think when you're talking about really

Dave Leake: 11:22

like, or like, if God is loving, why would God forbid people from loving each other who are attracted to each other? That's probably the biggest, in my opinion, is is especially views around sexuality and prohibitions on expressing yourself the way that you want to express yourself? I think that's been one of the driving factors towards Christian deconstruction. But but

Joshua Leake: 11:46

a huge one is also just human human suffering, and that was probably even one of my biggest ones is why cancer, especially cancer in vulnerable people, or why these disasters. And if God really is all powerful, if there God can't be all powerful and all good, and and that to me is another one of the huge driving forces.

Dave Leake: 12:10

Absolutely. Okay, so I would I would say my thought, my definition, and there is no concrete. Everybody agrees on this as deconstruction. My definition would be when people are exploring whether the roots of what they believe are true, especially when they're taking it apart. I think the process of deconstruction is not necessarily looking to reconstruct back into anything initially. The process of deconstruction is let's take apart things that we would say are problematic, or are painful, or are wrong, or are unjust, or are oppressive, or whatever it would be, toxic as a as a common word to use would be. And let's pull those out and try to find if there's anything left, right? So, my yeah, my issue is is that I think often with deconstruction, it doesn't actually lead you towards constructing anything specific. I think we were just talking about this with with deconstruction. So you know, there's there's there's nothing wrong actually with examining the foundations of what we believe. In fact, I think that's important. I had a moment where I went to Bible college in Springfield, Missouri, and I grew up in a pastor's household, and so there were just things that I kind of believe by default. Like, oh, I believe you know, I believe the whole Bible is true, and I believe I pretty much understand it, and I believe I pretty much have a pretty good understanding of theology. And then you go and you interact with people that have totally different viewpoints, and you you learn some things. Like for example, there are the way the Bible was written is is it's complex. You know, so many different authors over 1000s of years with different different viewpoints, but all inspired by God. And then you kind of you know see how that often in the Old Testament there were edits that are made not not by not editing the content but like fusing it together and and purposing it so that it tells a cohesive narrative over time because yeah anyway and so like as I was examining this I had to ask these questions like well what do I believe? You know, and I thankfully I went to a Bible college where they weren't challenging the very foundations of the Word of God in general. There are a lot of places that don't believe the Bible is true anymore, and they see it more as a moral allegory, or they would see the Bible as like a helpful guide to the human condition. Thankfully, I went to a college that still taught the Word of God as being the divine inspired Word of God, but but I had a moment where I was like, man, I guess I have to make my own decisions. Like just because mom or dad or Allison Park Church taught me these things, like do I believe these things are true? Probably for me, the the place where that was the most rigorous. That I had to look into it was over like the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. How do I believe these things function and blah blah blah and and there were some people there that were very just they had very opposing viewpoints to the way the way I'd grown up and and you know as I begin to reexamine some of those things actually, and what I'll say now is, as a 35-year-old who's now getting super old, but years and years out of college, the more I've studied things, like I've become more and more sure and firm about some things. Like they say, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know, and that's true. But actually, sometimes the more you study things, the more you can kind of feel like, yeah, this is actually justified, and I believe this as strongly as I ever have. So I think that there's if we mean deconstruction to mean examining the the core of what we believe and testing it through the fire to make sure that it's sturdy. I think that that makes sense, but I'm not really sure that that's where deconstructionists or the process of what we would term deconstruction really goes,

Joshua Leake: 16:09

or even just what is wildly popular in today's culture is I feel like it's mostly just being critical and tearing something down and pointing out all the things that are wrong, and not just examination. But I agree with what you said. I think my biggest two were questioning atheism. There was just a lot of voices, either in school, but especially online, that were loud and highly critical, and a lot of times insulting, and that really shook me. And then what you just said about like baptism in the Holy Spirit-that was a huge one for me because I think people in any sphere can be loud and can. It's not one denomination. It's not one faith background. I guess atheists would say lack of faith background, although I would still call that a faith background. Anybody can be loud, but I experienced these people saying you're indoctrinated because you're not allowed to question anything. You so specifically with atheism, you you are never allowed to question anything you believe. You just have to believe it, and here's all of these stories of abuse. So specifically with that one, I remember honestly, even in the last six years, some of my journey of this was like 2021 and 22, coming across some things and arguments. I'll just talk about specifically from atheists or agnostics where they asked questions about if God was really good, then how could this happen? Or you know, all these experiences that you feel like you've had, all these other religions have all these experiences. So this really means nothing. And I have a lot of journal entries from that time where I was like very upset and frustrated, even with God, of like, why am I going through this, and why is this allowed to happen, and does anything I believe actually valid? Maybe I did just. Maybe I'm just believing this all because I could, or because I grew up with it, and that stems into the baptism, baptism in the Holy Spirit. You saw my journey with this, Dave, too. But I think the last thing I want to say, and then we can keep going on this. I have a lot more I could say, but with both of these things, the thing that really helped me was I said, "Okay, if deconstructing is just examining, if that's the healthy version, I'm going to say,'Okay, I want whatever's true. Like if atheism really is true, and I just grew up with Christianity, or if the baptism in the Holy Spirit is something I grew up with and it's not true, I want to know what's true. And when I got to that place where I started just saying, "Let me look at these questions, what I found was, in my experience, all of the people that were being highly critical and loud most of the time. It didn't stand on anything that I found to be concrete. As somebody who was honestly like searching, when I like really started to dig into atheism, I was like, they're picking apart Christianity. But then, like, I don't feel like there's anything to stand on. Honestly, I would love to spend some time talking about that, but I'll I'll stop there and just also no no no

Dave Leake: 19:24

give give some examples because I think the longer we just stay in broad deconstruction, the longer it's sort of like ethereal. Like you know, pop off with this for a second. Go for it. Okay, great.

Joshua Leake: 19:35

I I'll before I go into the atheism thing, I'll say it was the same thing with cessationism. It's not my intention. Is not to dunk on cessationists. There are plenty of cessationists that I will dunk on for

Dave Leake: 19:48

sure. There's

Joshua Leake: 19:48

cessationists that I've seen online that I love and respect, and I don't like when they're uncharitable towards our camp. And I've seen people be uncharitable towards theirs. So this is not meant to be a dunk session, but I. I'll say personally, when I really looked into what are the cessationist scriptures that they base their beliefs on, I was like, I couldn't believe this even if I wanted to believe this. I just don't. Let me pause you for a

Dave Leake: 20:11

second. Let me pause you for a second. I think you're you're linking these because often. So when I think of deconstruction, I'm thinking people that are like, I'm not sure if I believe in Christianity. You're talking about people that are picking apart essentially our camp of theology, and and you were you were talking about that for for a little bit. That like in terms of like, oh my gosh, can you believe these people believe this thing? Like that's sort of a way we just talk in culture. It's like a YouTuber thing. Talk about that popular,

Joshua Leake: 20:42

yeah, yeah. Talk about that for

Dave Leake: 20:43

a second, because I I understand where you're going because I know you with cessationists, but like talk about that and then go over to why you're yeah. So you're talking

Joshua Leake: 20:52

about just the phenomenon of yeah,

Dave Leake: 20:55

sure, sure ridiculing

Joshua Leake: 20:56

yeah, because I think so. This is probably the one final factor of deconstructing is we're not just talking about something that you grew up in that you questioned. It's what is extremely popular. Maybe it's only on my feed, but I know it's not because I talk to other people. Is when you're online, it's I'm going to look at this specific system, this specific cultural popular thing, the way people act, the way people believe, they teach, and we're going to pick it apart and either be outraged or ridicule it or stir up fear. To me, that's a form of deconstructing. You're not necessarily deconstructing your own thing, but you're taking a value system or something that's popular, and you are kind of going through piece by piece, and a lot of times ridiculing it, insulting it, demeaning it, and for me that was always what I saw with atheism and what I saw with cessationism. Now again, it's not like I've seen Christians do it to atheists, I've seen continuationists do it to cessationists, so it's not a one-way street, but I'm just saying that phenomenon is what I see to be like really what's driving the online world right now is like that is so popular,

Dave Leake: 22:11

like mocking and being like, can you believe this clown clown picture like on their face? Like it's like that whole kind of a thing. I do think that that's a way to grow a channel. I mean, I think if you want to, if you want to get viewers or listeners quick, find something popular that you can dunk on, even if it's not a fair representation of that thing, and you destroy it. People are like, yes, and then you're like, it's problematic. It's been around for a long time. I bet you have stories. Yes, I do have stories. It doesn't mean that there aren't problems within said system. And again, I I do think it's worth separating. Like it it this whole when we're talking about topics that are nuanced, like not not necessarily deconstruction, but let's say the church. Like have people been burned by churches? Yes, absolutely. Have there been evils throughout history that certain church leaders or movements have done? Absolutely, have there been leaders that have fallen that have done wrong things? Yes, but deconstruction again seeks to ridicule often the whole thing. It like it like likes to gloss over, and it's like this thing is the same as this thing, which is and it's all stupid, and you're all dumb for listening to it, and we should break it down because it's never been a good thing in the first place, and it's always been a tool of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know, as if okay, so I one of the bones that I have to pick with deconstruction, as I think often it comes from this viewpoint that's a very Friedrich Nietzsche kind of perspective, which is that you know might makes right that the base drive of all people and all humans is to obtain power, and it's to to hold more power over those that don't have power when you have it, and when you don't have it, it's to fight and claw sort of evolutionary style survival of the fittest to the top and and get power back. And we live in a world where, you know, for many people, the the driving force of their life is power equality. And for the record, I just want to say I think that you know the Bible supports justice for the poor and the marginalized. Like when we're talking about people that that are victims as pastors, like I believe we want to stand up for people that don't have a voice and all these things. Absolutely, but like the the core of some people's man, especially for a lot of activists, it's like that guy's powerful. This person's powerful. That or take him down. Take him down. This system is old. This system is-it's like-it's like always being suspicious. Like it is a way of maintaining power over those that don't. That's really not a way that the Bible tends to see things. Like the the viewpoint of the Bible is like, don't seek your own power. It's-it's you know, be a servant. You know, I mean, Jesus came. You know, not to be served, but to serve. Like that-that was the. He didn't come when he came to us to demonstrate who God was. He didn't come at that time. You know, as a king on a charging white horse to slaughter the wicked and to set the and whatever. Like he came as a servant, and he came to love those who were broken, and he came as a doctor for the sick, as a healer, you know he came for those that were ostracized by society, and we're supposed to to have that same attitude as Jesus. And so, I guess it's a little bit of a bunny trail, but the lens that deconstruction tends to see things through is a lens of power and powerlessness, and of trying to balance those scales, and I'm not really sure that that's a Jesus-oriented structure. Not that there are no issues, but that being the goal is not necessarily a Jesus-oriented goal.

Joshua Leake: 25:57

Yeah, I agree, and I think exactly to echo what you said. And then I have another point with that. We can hold people who've done horrible things accountable. It doesn't mean we sweep things over. We can give voice to people who are in pain and struggling, and yet at the same time resist that lens that you're talking about of seeing things through only the powerful and the powerless, I think the other lens that I see is that doubt and being critical, maybe even cynicism, is sort of a protective mechanism where really doubting any other thing strengthens you. So when you point out something that's wrong with something, or you're critical of it, or cynical of it, it it is a protective mechanism for what you believe and for what you stand on. And there's sometimes with people, I'll go for the charitable motive because I really do think sometimes there is this in let's just say in Christian fundamentalist camps, where it's like very traditional and you can't waver on anything, is that if I don't criticize all of these things, look at this clip of you know these people in a Pentecostal circle, a charismatic circle, doing something crazy. If I don't criticize that, then I don't love truth, and I'm not standing up for the truth, and I'm not standing up for God's word. So this, I don't know if that's the same thing as doubt. I think doubt maybe goes more into the the non Christian circles, but I do think that those are protective or bolstering mechanisms. That it's like when I do this, it helps fuel that I'm serious about what I believe. But I really do think another part of being a Jesus follower, specifically if you're disciple of Jesus, is that you are cautious and measured with your words. So we can we can stand up and say something true, and do it in a way that does not reflect the heart of Jesus at all. And I am grieved by when I see this. I think sometimes you get you and I get back into this, and I feel a huge push to be charitable, not to because I I don't want to stand up for truth, but that when I see some of these happening; these these conversations happening again. I'm just going to specifically say atheism and baptism in the Holy Spirit because I want to talk about them. I feel a huge call to be charitable toward these positions because I'm grieved when I see people, especially Christians, especially Christians, dunking on other sides, dunking on atheists, dunking on different denominations. Even if I'm like, I agree with what they're saying, because I'm like, man, this critical attitude or this attitude of doubt, I just don't think represents the way that Jesus wants us to be speaking. Does that make sense? I want to make sure I thread the needle of how I said that because you can stand up for something that's true in a in a way that I think reflects Jesus well.

Dave Leake: 29:08

Yeah, I mean I think that's spoken like a pastor. I think that that's good. I think that there are. I think okay. I think that when we're talking about the way Jesus did it, it's important to see that the people that hold viewpoints are still people. They're they're still human. They're still people that God loves, but I don't think it means we have to necessarily be cautious with the way we talk about something that is wrong or evil, or that we have to like necessarily acknowledge it as a valid viewpoint. You know, it's like the people can be valid and we love them, but yeah, and and I so okay, so deconstruction. Circling back to it, the the the thing with deconstruction, you

know, I'll say it like this: 29:52

like the easiest way to not be wrong is to destroy somebody else. For what they're wrong on, and then not pick a stance yourself, like that is the easiest way to be right. It's because you don't really have something you're solid on. It's like that's ridiculous. I actually think like the generation, like our generation and millennials for sure, people know what they stand against way, way, way more than what they stand for, and like that's a whole lot easier to be like. That's a whole lot easier. You're wrong. That's and this is what I can't believe. This is what I

Joshua Leake: 30:28

see constantly. I had a long conversation with with Allison about this. Is it feels like this is like kind of the defining mark today of I mean even in a lot of Christian circles, of its most of what I am passionate about is what is wrong in other camps. Like, so I, as an example, like I've seen this inside of the parenting circles, and some of it's been really great. I know we don't want to spend a long time on this, but I think it's a helpful thing because it it shows the mindset, which is like all of these parenting behaviors. There was a huge push against timeouts are wrong, and that was a huge firestorm. I don't know if that's as big of a thing, and tearing apart why timeouts are bad and it's harmful to kids and all these things. And I didn't always see like what the alternative was that was good, and then I started to pay attention to like, well, what kids really need is time in where you sit with the kids. It would be easy for me to dunk on this now and be like dumb, so dumb. I think there's things to like that I learned from. I think there's things that I learned from the deconstructing of some parental values of time out is not always the right thing, but I think there are times that I'm like, oh, all we're building our parenting values is on what's wrong with all of the camps. But then when what they're advocating for, I'm like, I don't even think that really makes a ton of sense. Yeah, absolutely. That's

Dave Leake: 32:00

like absolutely

Joshua Leake: 32:01

that. That's one example of like deconstructing an old system that I think I just hit this plant. Deconstructing an old system that I think, in a in a way where it's like what we're rebuilding, I don't totally see it connecting with reality all the time.

Dave Leake: 32:15

Or talk about talk about atheism for a second. I know that's one that you've been passionate about.

Joshua Leake: 32:19

Yeah. So so here was my here was my journey with atheism. Was I remember in high school somebody pointed out, really for the first time I'd never considered it. They said,"Well, if your God's so real and He's so good, then this earthquake that just happened, you know, across the country. I don't, or not across the country, across the world. I don't remember where it was. A bunch of people had died. Why didn't he step in and stop that? And I didn't have a good answer for that, and I didn't have any good scriptures for that. And I just sort of tucked that away, and I was like, I got to figure out an answer to this. But I didn't really ever come up with something that I thought was really good. And then I remember in college and after college, people started to talk about stories of abuse in the church. All of these things are happening. Why would God allow His church to act this way? If God's really good, or if God's really real, how would this happen? Why is this allowed to happen? And so, with inside of that, I sort of got to the place where I said, "Okay, let's just pretend all of that doesn't exist. Like, let's tear all that down. Let's say God's not fully good, or let's say God doesn't exist at all. Then I was sort of left to reconstruct a lot of what life is without any of that, which I heard all of these atheists online saying you can do without any of what,

Dave Leake: 33:41

without any of what,

Joshua Leake: 33:42

without a guiding system of morals or values or what I would see as a logical description of existence, because what they would say is you don't need a book, a holy book, to tell you how to live. You can be a good person without that. You don't need a god for these types of things, if God was really this way, and so then I was left to question. Okay, then what is the the basis for all of these things? Because that was when I really started to look at what they did believe, and not just what they're standing against. All these things that are dumb intellectually or systematically with Christianity. Then there's just some basic, basic, basic frameworks for reality that I was like, I can't get past these. Like, okay,

Dave Leake: 34:29

so so for example, if there is no moral standard for good, who defines what's good and evil? Is it just what's good for every person? Is it just that like Josh defines good for Josh, I define good for me, and we can't judge each other because we're just two humans that are making our own judgments on right and wrong. Is it what's best for the common people? So is it what's what's best for the most people as what's the most good? Is it just like I mean there there are so many ways you can try to do it, but like if if there is no God, then there is no such. Is moral good? It's just random chance, and it's just people decide and do what they want to do. And we've all adopted just because it's convenient a social construct that says, "Well, as long as you're not harming people and you're making yourself happy, that's good. But there's no basis for that. Like if we are all just like random clumps of cells, and if life has no spiritual component, and if there is no life after death, then there is no right or wrong. Why even be kind to people? Why not just be out for for your best life? Like what? What? I mean, like what? What's the value in being kind? What's the value in being good? There is, I mean, I don't think that I think that this has always been kind of the philosophical debate. I don't think that there is a secular moral good. If you take God out of the equation, there's no actual objective and

Joshua Leake: 35:54

really like maybe even the sticking point. There's actually a couple of others, but this one was huge. Is the response to that a lot of times was that I would hear, or I would see online was you, but you don't need a religious book or a god to tell you to be good. You can still be a good person, but then it's like okay, but how do we? How can we agree that racism is wrong? Like there is no there is no ability to say that it's wrong other than that you say I don't like this, or that you say it's not good for the the whole of humanity from an evolutionary perspective to do this. But it's like, but that's not a an actual real moral framework. That's just sort of a like a an explanation for way maybe as opposed to like

Dave Leake: 36:45

yeah as opposed to like every person is created in the image of God and we shouldn't devalue people based on things like the color of their skin. I mean when when you have an objective framework where somebody above you sets the rules for what's right and wrong and their definition comes from outside of you. It does make sense how there is an objective moral good, but yeah, 100% You deconstruct, well, blah blah blah, and the nothing is left. Here is the thing: like, let's just okay. And man, we the atheism thing. I can jump down the rabbit hole because what I feel like atheists love to dunk on is like science, like science, like science says this, and and okay, so so like we we could go down a whole evolution chain, but like the thing that really bothers me is science has proven that all life in our universe all originated from a single pinprick size point and exploded out, and the universe is now expanding outward from this point of existence that we would refer to in a secular way as the Big Bang, which happens to perfectly mirror what the Bible talks about in Genesis, where God spoke the the universe into motion, and it's like, well, how did like what happened before the Big Bang? The best people can do is grasping at straws. There's really, and in fact, I was just digging down this rabbit hole the other day. It's it's like you really have to start at a place if you're going to believe this. This is where the faith statement comes in. If you're going to believe stuff like this, it's like, well, we don't really have good answers yet, but I faith that there will be good answers in the future, and those answers are all much better than believing in Sky Daddy or whatever you want to say, because there couldn't be there couldn't possibly be a God. That doesn't make any sense. I guess in God

Joshua Leake: 38:34

the idea of scientific progress will one day answer every question that needs to be answered,

Dave Leake: 38:41

even though even though it hasn't so far, and there's no like there's no guarantee that science will ever have answers for these things. In fact, like the best mathematical models are totally speculative, as far as like string theory or the multiverse theory. Even the multiverse theory, you have so the idea with multiverse is there are infinite universe. Are the chances of life existing the way they do in our universe are so infinitesimal, like one in a some something something crazy trillion. I mean, it's it's like a the the chances for life to exist as it does are so unlikely. Well, it's because there's infinite universes, and so our universe would mathematically have to exist based on what? Like there, there actually is there. It's just a guess. It's it's it's it's like a faith statement. It's as much. I would actually say it's a much broader faith statement to believe that we are one in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion universes. That we can't prove it, but it's possible. It might might maybe be possible if these things show up in the future. That's a greater faith statement. It's faith in like naturalism. It's a greater faith statement to believe in that than to believe in a designer. To believe in a god. And I just think that yeah. Sorry. Go

Joshua Leake: 39:57

ahead. Well, no. I'm just. I was going to say that was again another one. The sticking point, as I looked at this, is people would say science has already disproven faith, and I heard that a lot growing up. That's actually I'm not going to go out and name names here, but there's a lot of really popular people online that have said once I realized science has proven evolution, it toppled really everything else about my faith. Kind of fell from there, and I would hear sometimes preachers say science and faith don't conflict, and I was always like unsettled about that. I was like, yeah, but these people online are saying that they do that science has disproven faith, and I don't get that how that this interacts. But the thing is, is that science, by definition, cannot disprove faith, like science is the study of observable phenomenon in the universe, and it is a different branch than philosophy. And to say so, this is again like one of those things that I really got into is like evolution cannot answer the question of life because it isn't designed to answer that question, like we can look at all of the different stuff of microevolution, macrevolution, all of that, but it doesn't answer why. Why is a philosophy question of how did things come to be? That science it takes so much faith to say science will one day answer this observable phenomenon, and it's like, well, what about anything that is not observable that we get into philosophy? Philosophy, which part of this is the moral argument? Is that there is more to morality than matter and energy? That's where it was really like I could be any other faith, but I could never be an atheist. Specific, and again, if there is an atheist listening, it's not to dunk on you, but just to say, when I really studied the framework for what I watch atheists believe, which is in human rights, in justice, all of these things, and then also be materialists in matter and energy, I was like, I just can't. That just does not work for me at all, specifically with the the moral argument. And you get into one final thing I want to say about this: You get into, I think it was John Ortberg that said there is such a thing as blind faith, where you believe what you believe and you you're not allowed to question it. But there is such a thing as blind doubt, where you just doubt because it feels good to doubt or because it's easier to doubt. But it's actually not based on anything, you're just doubting because it's what you've always done. There's a lot more arguments we could get into that I would love to, but I don't know how much we do.

Dave Leake: 42:32

Yeah, Josh, I think like the the question of philosophy is even so. There's there's there's science can't answer why, right? Science can answer what and how science can't answer the question of why. But can I just

Joshua Leake: 42:48

quickly say to that too? I was sometimes confused when they would say it can't answer why, because there it can explain why your brain works the way that it does. But we're saying why to philosophy questions. There's what means what they mean.

Dave Leake: 43:03

Science can't answer why why why like science can't answer is there purpose to life. Science can't answer why did this happen to me. Science can't answer why do I feel like this is wrong and this is right. I mean, there's when it's like questions of morality, when it's questions of purpose, when it's questions of existence, not just the functions of how did this happen, or not like the causes, but the purpose. Purpose is a question science can't answer. But here's what I'll say: it's not just that, like, because I think sometimes you get relegated where it's like religion is over here and it answers the why questions, and science is over here, and it answers the how and what questions, and they don't always. But like, atheism does not have good answers in science either. That's my main thing. It's like how so? It's okay. So, like, I'll give an example with evolution. With with evolution in general, obviously there are certain forms of of evolution that have been proven. Like when it comes to micro evolution, even if we go to macro evolution, though, when we look at like humans evolving from monkeys, there are there's still no good evidence. Like there still isn't. Like we look at different types of like they would be like semi humans, like there's Neanderthals or what's the other one? It starts with a D. I'm blanking on it right now, and I could look it up. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, these are like pre humans, different species. They had different size craniums. They had shorter arms. They were barrel chested, but it's like yeah, but their DNA is the same, and they reproduce with humans. Like if it's a different species, you actually can't breed together. In fact, there are more differences and species of monkeys that are the same species than there are between humans and these prehumans. They're really just different types of humans, like different looking humans. So there. Really, is no evolutionary link like that missing link? They didn't think that people would always talk about for a long time.

Joshua Leake: 45:06

Yeah, the the charitable way of saying it is it's extremely speculative, and there's a lot of what I would say.

Dave Leake: 45:13

Why are we being charitable on this? I I I will be charitable to people that believe this, but the viewpoint is dumb. I think I

Joshua Leake: 45:22

well here's why here's why I think that's unfair. Here's why I think that's unfair is there are people who maybe will legitimately question what you're saying, but if you just insult the viewpoint without explaining why the the process to get there is worth considering that it doesn't make sense because I do think that's what it is good to examine from, which is what what I would consider the charitable way to do it would be to say it's extremely speculative, and I think they would atheists would agree with this. This is a speculative field, and you have to have some level of if they don't want to say faith, it would be trust because sometimes they don't like the word faith. It's trust that science will, because we've had so much scientific progress up to this point. Science, how do you know that science won't one day be able to answer these questions? But I, I do think, to me, that's where I just see the blind doubt come in, which is when you say it's dumb. I'm like, well, I wouldn't use that word, but I would say it feels like blind doubt because it's like, well, I don't need a God to tell me. But I'm like, yeah, but what you're saying takes so much faith, which is that science can explain everything worth knowing, which is the belief that's called scientism, and that belief cannibalizes itself because if science can explain everything worth knowing, then you would have to prove that with science, which can't be proven. So,

Dave Leake: 46:44

sure,

Joshua Leake: 46:45

I just find that that falls apart really quickly.

Dave Leake: 46:48

Okay, to clarify, I don't think all anti-Christian beliefs are inherently dumb. What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, what I think is dumb is whenever we pretend as if science has already basically answered all relevant questions to life, or all relevant scientific questions, and we relegate the Christian idea of creation, creationism, and and all this as if it's unscientific and has bad answers, but that atheism has good answers when it comes to how science works, it's just like science is not inherently secular, meaning godless. It's just it's just us testing and trying to understand how the world works, and philosophy is interpreting the data that we have found through science and fitting it into our our worldview. And so, what I what I do think is dumb as being like no, but it's like, but we actually we we are in speculation, and and faith is putting trust in something that hasn't yet come to pass because you believe that it will, even though there's not good evidence that it necessarily will. Just to say, well, it has in the past, so like that doesn't mean if we're going to use a scientific method, that does that's no guarantee that progress will continue to explain everything with a natural cause, especially whenever we still have many questions about natural causes. And I

Joshua Leake: 48:08

find that to be the same thing as the the God of the gaps, which did happen. We fill in everything we don't know with God, but you can do the same thing with scientific explanation. Everything worth knowing, we could fill in all of these gaps, so I agree. Taking that stance where it's like, no, I won't. I don't think that is an actual true to science way of operating. But I just quickly want to say too, because I know there's probably people watching this podcast who you are wrestling with some form of big questions like deconstructing, and maybe you are even in some state of anxiety or frustration or pain. Because I went through this, and a lot of people I know went through this, where you you are feeling like, man, I really do want to know the truth, and I really do want to find this. Our desire in talking about these things is to say, watch out for the pattern of deconstruction that really is just tearing things down without building anything. So that's why I think when we're talking about this science stuff, it's like science is a wonderful, important, amazing field of study, but also to tear everything else down and then say this answers everything. I found that form of deconstruction by actually just looking at what do these people or this what is this belief system prop up? I found it to be really lacking, and I think that's just a good way of operating is to say in Christianity it's good to ask questions, like we don't want to. I think there's there's verses that sometimes make it feel like doubt is you're bad if you doubt. So the James verse, that's James chapter one, talks about the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea blown and tossed by the wind. So that's like just. Accept the brainwashing. Never ask questions. But one one of the stories that's helped me, I think it's what is it? I think Matthew chapter 11. Yeah, John the Baptist in prison when he was announcing that Jesus was coming, and then he's thrown in prison, and he sends some of his disciples to Jesus, and they ask. Let me just read the actual verse here in Matthew chapter 11. His now when John heard in prison what the Christ was doing, he sent a message through his disciples and asked him,"Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else? Jesus replied to them, "Go and report to John what you hear and see. The blind receive their sight, the lame walk, those with leprosy are cleansed, so wrestling with questions is not inherently wrong. If we're saying that's what deconstruction is, John

Dave Leake: 50:49

had doubts when he was in prison, and Jesus answered him, like on his level. Yeah.

Joshua Leake: 50:54

So I'm just saying, wrestling with big questions about your faith is not a bad thing. Like that kind of deconstruction, where you say, "Is what I always believed. Is there actually evidence for this? Because I think when you do it with the right heart and you're actually seeking, you will end up finding helpful, truthful things. Is what I at least what I have come across is I start to not just look at what's being ridiculed, but what people actually stand on, and I'm like, oh, this isn't nearly as scary. I would love to talk about baptism in the Holy Spirit, but but I've been talking for a little bit, so no,

Dave Leake: 51:32

that's a that's a we'll save that for another day.

Unknown: 51:34

Okay,

Dave Leake: 51:35

so so I think I think just just to circle back around, reexaminations very healthy. Paul praised the the people, men and women of Berea, when he taught there that they would examine what he said in the scripture to see if it actually was in the scripture or not. It's we're we're praised to to take a deeper look at what scripture says. It's not a bad idea to ask questions. Why do why do I believe what I want to believe? Deconstruction, the the starting point is that it is inherently a good thing if something is a power structure that has hurt people and has been used manipulatively. It is inherently a good thing to pick apart and tear down the toxic parts of said structure because it always is a is a way of setting oppressed people free, but it's actually often a way that leaves you with nothing. You pick it apart, you take it apart for a good reason because we're told it's a good thing to do because people have found like, oh, I was hurt by this. So, but but then there's actually not a whole lot left there, and there's a lot of things that we stand against, and not a whole lot of things that we stand for, and just honestly, here is what I believe and why we're doing this podcast. I believe that there is a real God, that His name is Jesus, that one day all of us are going to stand before Him at the end of all things when He's going to judge us, and that there is an objective reality as real as the sun is real. There is a real living, resurrected Jesus, and we're going to answer for the way that we've lived our lives, and whether we've repented for our sin and come to Him or not, whether we're spiritually alive or dead. And so, it's my heart to not shame anybody who's asking questions or having doubts or thinking through things, but it's to say, are we sure that the best policy is just to be permanently skeptical and to mock things and to look for power structures and to tear them down and to not have any answers. Pastor

Joshua Leake: 53:29

Dave, sure. Let me let me ask you like a because you can answer this pastorally as because I think some people might be wondering, okay, but what if I see something in a church that legitimately was this way of operating led to something abusive? Or I feel like, man, I I just haven't seen good answers to this question. I guess let's start with the because so much of what deconstruction is is sharing stories. What if I see a story where somebody talks about how hurt they were by something? Are it? It could almost just sound like so. We're just supposed to wipe that aside, or we say no, that was wrong. But then we hop right back into the same thing. Like, what do we do with those stories? Because they're everywhere.

Dave Leake: 54:11

If some okay, this is maybe I'm going to use a bad example, but just to illustrate it, if somebody was really rude to you at the gym, and or they told you how to use the weights wrong, a fitness coach did, and you hurt yourself because of it. We wouldn't say I have gym hurt and never go back to the gym because somebody. And if they manipulated us at it, like we would, we would not want that general gym, but like we wouldn't throw it all of fitness together in general. Like, like just be okay. Hurt can be real, and I mean it is. And pain is often extremely like what people have been through with their painful experiences. I my heart goes out to them. We want to be at the church that I'm starting here, Salt Church. We want to be a place for people to come and find healing. Same with Allison Park Church. So empathy is a good thing. It's a godly thing. But like whether or not something is true is not the same question as has somebody been hurt or are there victims or has somebody abused power if they have or like they're they're not necessarily the same thing. We we tie them often together, yeah. But and I think it's it's worth asking questions. If we have questions about things, we should bring questions. But you got to land on answers. If we have no answers to things, we have nothing we stand for. There's, you know, there's there's no guiding compass for life except for all vibes. Like, yeah, I kind of like this. I kind of like a little bit of this. Like, I kind of like a little bit of Buddhism. I kind of like a little bit of humanism, whatever makes me feel good, and I just personally am not going to build my life on just a bunch of nothings and guesses, like because I don't actually believe that is the way the universe works. I don't believe that is reality, you know. As as people of of science, like I do believe whether or not people believe in the effects of the power of the sun, the sun is still real, you know, or of gravity, or or of physics, like those are just those are just the way the world works. I believe it's the same thing with the way the spiritual world works, with the way life after death works. It's not just like some people all have their different guesses. I mean, I believe you know in a historical Jesus, which is really you can't disprove the historical Jesus. That in fact he was by far the most important person that ever lived. Just even with like secular historians, and secular historians have a very difficult time trying to disprove the resurrection because there's so much historical testimony, witnesses from the time. I mean, more than any other event in history, there's more witness testimony. That was another.

Joshua Leake: 56:52

That's another really interesting thing that we. I mean, you guys did a whole episode on that. If you're interested, there's a whole episode that Dave and my dad did probably a year or two ago, just about the evidence for the resurrection. That's really interesting, but that was another really helpful aspect in my journey. Of a lot of people, when they get to all of the questions, just say, "Well, I don't believe that in a miracle. I don't believe that these things could have happened. So that is the the basis. Is just the evidence for the resurrection couldn't be real because this miracles don't happen. I didn't find that to be convincing. But another thing I would say with with deconstruction for people who either you're seeing stories or maybe you have a story. Another thing I would want to say as a pastor is sometimes seeing abuse or pain, whatever questions that come from this, it may not cause somebody to leave Christianity entirely, or may not cause you to completely abandon stuff. But it can cause you to distance because you're more protected. This is actually what I feel like. Maybe I even see as much is that people will just kind of distance themselves from other believers or from the church because they're like, well, I believe in God, and I kind of even maybe even believe in Jesus, but I just think that organized religion, or I believe that the church, or we've gotten away from all of these things, and that's another place that I see. You didn't finish

Dave Leake: 58:18

your thought. You didn't finish your thought. I believe the church organized religion, or all these things, are what.

Joshua Leake: 58:24

Thanks for stopping me. I thought I was clear on how I was saying that that they have abused their power, that they've gotten away from the what the Bible is supposed to look like, that you don't actually need to go to church to honor God, that you can be a follower of Jesus without actually being around. If you've been hurt, you don't need to, and and I think while taking space is okay, sometimes I think this is another one of those places that I see people in their deconstruction journey because stories are so powerful, because the pain is so real, the questions are so intense that sometimes people don't stand on anything. It's just I just want distance, and why they believe I don't need to do these things. I don't need to be around church or other believers. I don't necessarily see that that's rooted in what you're for. It's just I'm distancing myself, and that's I think summarizing what I see with this deconstruction. You know, there's the ridiculing where it's it makes me feel better and I I bolster myself, but there's also just the the healthy protective distance where I notice the stories and the pain and the things that have gone wrong and the questions, and I just pull back without standing on anything, and that would be my encouragement is just, and I think this is what our dad was so good at too.

Dave Leake: 59:43

Yes, was

Unknown: 59:44

what

Dave Leake: 59:45

your encouragement. Sorry, maybe you're you're getting there. No, I'm getting there. Is

Joshua Leake: 59:49

to figure out what you do stand on. Like, if you stand on the word of God and you believe in Christianity, like don't just say this is what I don't believe and I do believe in some. Of these things, but I've rejected coming to these parts because they were painful. Fully flesh out like this is exactly what I believe and why I believe it. And if you don't have good answers, search for good good answers. This is also I just keep coming back to this this episode of we asked Dad why do you not call out false teachers? Because they're all of these people online. False teachers are false. Everyone's a false teacher except me. I'm not a false teacher, but everyone else is. It's like the pattern online. And he was like, "I think it's more important to stand on what we do believe than to constantly build around tearing down all these other things. And it took me like a year to fully like digest that, but I think that's a part of the deconstruction journey. Is you're not just pointing out what's wrong with everyone else. You're trying to get really good answers to what you're standing on in your life. So it doesn't need to be rushed. It when you're searching this kind of stuff out and you're asking these questions. But I think just being content with the distance and with the protection and with the tearing down, I don't think actually gives you stuff to stand on.

Dave Leake: 1:01:10

I'm I'm going to push more than you then because I I I kind of agree. I kind of agree, but I kind of don't agree. I think that there is urgency. So here's my thing: like it, I think a lot of people are content with no answers. It's just, well, I'm figuring it out. I'm on a journey. That's great, you know. And there are some questions that like we won't ever have great answers to, and there are some questions that we can be on a journey with. And not every question is as urgent to answer as others. But here is an urgent question: Is Jesus Christ the Son of God, and if He is, are you going to submit yourself to what He says? Because for Christians, that's where all of it goes, and it's not like, well, I can kind of pick and choose which parts of obedience I have. Like Jesus was like, you're kind of either all in or you're not, and He wasn't afraid to lose followers. He obviously antagonized the religious leaders that were obsessed with making themselves look good, holding power power over others, but also the followers that kind of wanted to be a little bit and a little bit out. You know, he said, "Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you'll have no part in me. And 1000s left because, like, they were like, "What the? And and he put on like he put on intense, very clear, not just guidelines, but but requirements. If you're gonna, if you are gonna find God, you're gonna come to me. You know, I'm the way, truth, truth, truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Jesus believed in in Scripture. Jesus believed in the Old Testament. He taught out of it as the divine inspired word of God, he talked about how God wrote it. You know, he referenced like when he's on trial, he says he says you know before Moses, I I am. You know, he's he's quoting or maybe Abraham might be misquoting this, but like where God introduced himself, I am that I am. He quotes himself the same way. So anyway, my family's coming home. They're about to walk in the door right now, so I do need to go ahead and close this. I don't have any time to. You have to wrap this up in a

Joshua Leake: 1:03:10

second. I can't say one final thing.

Dave Leake: 1:03:12

No, I you can do it next time on our next episode because I'm gonna about to have kids in my living room any second now. So well, then I could

Joshua Leake: 1:03:22

close the podcast. Okay, this is great. We're gonna leave this all in. It's great. I'll close it out and I'll say thanks for joining. I know how to do this.

Dave Leake: 1:03:31

Okay, sounds good. Well,

Joshua Leake: 1:03:34

we will try to relinquishing his power. I have the throne now. All right, sounds good. All right, cool. Back very quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. So, so what I just want to say, in in addition to what he's saying, is I think the urgency that he's encouraging is so good because these questions matter. I think what I'm encouraging is there is urgency, like he was saying, to ask questions. I don't think there's urgency to have every answer to every question immediately. So studying what he was saying about who was Jesus, and I love how Cliff. I don't know how the say his last name Connectel. I think I'm going to say it wrong. Was Jesus reliable? Is the New Testament reliable? Like study that stuff. But you can ask the bigger questions too, like what's the basis for human rights? What's the basis for existence? Is there any explanation? My encouragement would just be if you are wrestling through questions and heaviness, asking the questions. There's urgency. That's that's a good encouragement. Ask the good questions. Don't put those off. Don't delay them, but at the same time, you don't have to sprint to have every single thing figured out. Work through things one at a time. Take one question and really study what do people believe and what's the basis for these things. Because I really believe that if you just look at the some of the basis is the arguments. Philosophically, for reality, look at the the historical evidence for Jesus, for the New Testament, for the Bible. I really do believe as you seek God, He will reveal Himself to you. So my encouragement would be: study it, take time, dig into it. The questions are good, and praying for you as you take those steps because I know from my own journey how important this is, so look at me-I did it. I had the throne. I closed the podcast. Thanks, Dave, for letting me do this. And I just want to say thanks again for tuning in for our Rethink Revive podcast. Thank you for being with us and for tuning in. We'll catch you next time.